00:21:26 Bruce Mabee: Why they matter will be the fun part! 00:21:31 Sue Ryu: Leadership not management matters. Don’t worry Paul 00:21:39 Bernard Mohr: Whether they add value or not, they have power, so they matter 00:22:07 Sue Ryu: We should strive for self-management 00:23:08 Jim Dowling: Re:Sue, Don't confuse Manager with Management. 00:23:59 Sue Ryu: I don’t. 00:25:13 Lorena Balestrieri: Hi Everyone! Nice to meet you, I have recently joined the EODF board as a trustee for the community forums. Excited to be joining this interesting conversation. I have been leading teams for over 20 years and it is such a learning process… 00:25:31 Gareth Evans: welcome all, thanks for joining Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with 😃 00:25:33 Jennifer Rodibaugh: Hi Lorena Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with 😃 00:27:34 Adam Burden: Saw this post 🤯 Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with 😂 00:28:35 Bernard Mohr: Is there value in having a function that is different from and goes beyond direct service or production? What would that function look like ? Where would it reside? What value would it add? 00:29:30 Ken Shepard: Jaques prescribes up to 7 levels for a global scale corporation. Level has nothing to do with span of control. 00:29:30 Bruce Mabee: If not 11 levels, how many levels do we "need" -- and for what, when? 00:30:52 Bernard Mohr: @bruce <> Nicolay Worren: Reacted to with 👍 00:31:21 Kristian Orozco: Meta is currently in the process of streamlining FB to look more like IG, so their Org Chart will be different by year’s end, according to Zuckerberg. Let’s wait and see… 00:35:02 Jodie Goulden: As a manager, a LOT of my role was about sharing information. Employees said "give us more information". Bosses said "report your progress". Today's technology enables information to be available to everyone, so managers don't need to play this role. Adam Burden: Reacted with 👍 Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with ☺️ 00:36:38 Adam Burden: Knowledge is power and if everyone has the knowledge... 00:39:10 Bernard Mohr: Yes - agree the overseeing, controlling function is much less needed - but what functions ARE needed 00:39:41 Ken Shepard: Agee with rethinking mgt work - but there are strong reasons for managers whatever you want to call them. 00:39:55 sunita sinha: you have reframed beautifully Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 00:41:10 Bernard Mohr: @ken - so lets talk about the functions that are needed that require a separate role from what a production/service team can do Paul Tolchinsky: Replying - agree Bernard, there are probably functions that do add value and could only be done by someone with the role/title Bernard Mohr: Replying @Paul - what if talk about managing the business vs managing people. Might that change the conversation? 00:41:27 Rahul Lama: Uber’s ML algorithm finds drivers and locations instantly and with high accuracy. In the earlier taxi era, we might have required/needed managers to locate and share taxi info our way! Jodie Goulden: Reacted with 👍 00:42:34 Bruce Mabee: Agree with Sunita: the frames (from Paul) matter! Now, how to make those functions work. 00:43:57 Paul Tolchinsky: I think in every silver cloud there is a grey lining and visa versa...we can always find downs in every up 00:44:18 Paul Tolchinsky: Every Employee a Manager, Scott Meyer 1968 00:44:59 Lorena Balestrieri: I do believe managers (or leaders or the name they hold) will become enablers, will add value to an organization only when the value they add is human related. (Like developing and encouraging their teams) Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 00:46:01 Paul Tolchinsky: Connectors, enablers, facilitators, redefining the work needed 00:51:08 Mike McGovern: Start ups, middle managers. Would be interested to know at what stage this applies, At initiation, through scaling up? 00:51:31 Molly Breazeale: Managers create the conditions for individuals to make decisions. Before an employee says, "I will", they want to know if someone will have there back, provide guidance and direction. Work is personal, and the manager relationship matters. They also control the environment that people come together and make decisions. 00:51:28 Bernard Mohr: @Paul - I would add “designers” ie managers as designers of the environment that brings out the best in people and creates high performance. Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 00:51:53 Bernard Mohr: just like we are top NOT down designers, neither does a manager need to be a top down designer 00:53:11 Bruce Mabee: Yes, a design frame starts with -- or soon uncovers -- "What Actually Matters?" sunita sinha: Reacted with 👍 00:53:18 Paul Tolchinsky: the designer bias, one way or the other is a problem...in truth neither are right in any polarity....it is always a both and 00:53:27 Bernard Mohr: @Molly - yes managers as designers of the conditions that lead to high performance and high QWL Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 00:54:22 Anna McGrath: I didn’t vote as my answer was “depends.” Depends on lots of factors - especially the consciousness of the existing power holders. No one solution. 00:54:37 Bernard Mohr: @Paul - not sure what is meant by <> 00:56:19 Anna McGrath: I agree it is about polarities. Personal choice and preferences - what type of organization do you want to work within? 00:57:21 Jodie Goulden: In practice, when I'm helping companies to design their organization, we try to generate options, then decide which option is best for their specific situation. So, ok, 1 option might include fewer managers (among other design elements). Is it a good option? It depends on how well it meets the company's purpose & strategy. 00:57:22 Sue Ryu: why not? You should if you care about it. 00:57:40 Dawn Powell: Perhaps it's not hierarchy we want to remove (hierarchy can be helpful), but dysfunctional hierarchical behaviours?? 00:57:40 Paul Tolchinsky: Bernard, I think the popular lit espouses a particular solution (get rid of managers) and as designers we should be careful....it should be about enabling the systems to figure it out, and at min we need to call out our bias 00:57:41 sunita sinha: With democratisation of everything …… models /Structure will need to change …. is it a choice decision ? 00:57:48 Bernard Mohr: @Anna There are well established/well researched processes for work system design that allow people to express Personal choice and preferences - and the type of organization do they want to work within 00:58:21 Sue Ryu: Self management doesn’t mean having consensus Paul Tolchinsky: Replying to "Self management does..." @Sue Ryu, I agree 00:58:57 Jodie Goulden: @Dawn - the design might encourage or reduce the dysfunctional behaviours 00:59:29 Anna McGrath: In my experience dysfunctional behaviors happen in both systems and structures. As we are humans. 🙂 00:59:47 Adam Burden: Totally agree Dawn - highly layered orgs can feel very flat and visa versa! 00:59:53 Bernard Mohr: @jodie YES - design choices either encourage or reduce the dysfunctional behaviours Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 00:59:55 Jennifer Rodibaugh: Great point, Dawn 01:00:00 Dawn Powell: @Jodie, absolutely agree! Jodie Goulden: Reacted with 😀 01:00:18 Bruce Mabee: Both Paul & Nicolay, focused on things that matter. Jodie's point purpose & strategy (and at this moment) is a key. Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 01:01:51 Bernard Mohr: Value added is a core concept in STS (TavistockEmery) 01:02:07 Paul Tolchinsky: span of control = old metric, new one might be "sphere of influence" which has more impact on a system Bernard Mohr: @Paul - NICE… span of control = old metric, new one might be "sphere of influence" which has more impact on a system 01:02:29 Molly Breazeale: If we look at work from the employee point of view today, their reason for making career and work choices have changed. How do we stay current in a Smartphone world, and think differently about those changes. 01:02:48 Mike McGovern: Regarding addressing counter-productive management behavior. At BP/Amoco we instituted an upward appraisal process that facilitated communication between managers and employees regarding the manager's behaviors that hindered or helped employee performance. Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 01:02:58 Adam Burden: Great idea @paul - might be a challenge to measure! 01:03:03 Jodie Goulden: Hi, anyone on the call experienced in Agility methodologies & principles? Want to chime in how you you see it? Nicolay Worren: Lots of good things about Agile, but it is weak and confusing with regards to structure and accountability 01:03:31 Jodie Goulden: Or any other adjacent / non org design background? 01:04:54 Bernard Mohr: For those unfamiliar with Appreciative Inquiry … it is a WAY of doing organization. Not a prescription for the design choices Kristian Orozco: Agree. 01:08:56 Ken Shepard: Here is the article about the 7 languages of communication and action. I found it useful. 01:10:02 Jennifer Rodibaugh: @bernard - thank you for bringing up appreciative inquiry, I come back to that often 01:10:49 Sue Ryu: Jennifer, if I may, instead of a manager directing, use an evidence based measure. Measure what matters. Those should guide them not managers directing them. 01:10:51 Ken Shepard: Forrest Christian wrote a great blog on the clash of language in considering ideas and approaches. https://www.manasclerk.com/blog/2023/02/20/how-you-talk-about-deciding-affects-who-thinks-youre-an-idiot/ 01:11:17 Rahul Lama: Managers Have Major Impact On Mental Health: How To Lead For Wellbeing: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2023/01/29/managers-have-major-impact-on-mental-health-how-to-lead-for-wellbeing/ Molly Breazeale: Reacted with ❤️ Jackie Diab: Reacted with ❤️ Nicolay Worren: Reacted with 👍 01:11:20 Paul Tolchinsky: governance versus management Adam Burden: Reacted with 👍 01:11:50 Bruce Mabee: What if we kept some of the management functions with certain humans, but did not necessarily pay them more -- or give other kinds of hierarchical status? 01:12:08 Paul Tolchinsky: Designing mechanisms to assume the symphony makes great music 01:13:18 Jodie Goulden: But what are the reasons why the Bossless etc resonates so strongly? Myself included as someone who finds a lot of inspiration in this. 01:14:13 Paul Tolchinsky: I think Jodie, it is about maximizing human potential, at least for me it is 01:15:07 Adam Burden: Got to jump onto a workshop. Thank you everyone, I learnt a lot! 01:16:03 Bernard Mohr: @Jodie - in my experience with highly professionalized organizations (eg academia, healthcare, R&D etc) the workers (docs, scientists, faculty etc) love to hate “the bossess_ and have little or no desire to do the unique work of those who are not doing the core work Nicolay Worren: Reacted with 👍 01:16:23 Paul Tolchinsky: Appreciative thinking is all about unleashing the potential, the talents and energy of people Bernard Mohr: Reacted with 🙂 01:17:40 Paul Tolchinsky: unfortunately maybe we have too many bad examples of managers or leaders and not a critical mass of something better 01:17:57 Ken Shepard: It might be that the extent of authoritative control is the amount of risk to human life in the work. The military has tight control as do nuclear plants. Modular spotify not so much. Software - not so much. 01:18:17 Bernard Mohr: @Paul - I might add appreciative practice is about building relationships as we together design the organization that will work for us 01:18:17 Bruce Mabee: Paul & Nicolay stimulated another diverse and challenging EODF/ODF set of perspectives from us, the cats (is "cat" a form of management or leadership?) 01:18:44 Jim Dowling: A good read on bossless: "Taking the Helm" by Dawn Riley. Dawn "de-led" the all-woman America's Cup Team. 01:19:05 Sue Ryu: Not the manager but the mission, vision, goals of the org. decide. 01:20:16 Bernard Mohr: @Jim - I struggle with metaphors like <> just as I struggle with the “Coal Mine” metaphor WRT to relevance to complicated organizations 01:20:36 Jim Dowling: Sue: Could not agree more. Can I add Purpose & Values? 01:20:45 Sue Ryu: Indeed 01:21:10 Ken Shepard: There are levels of complexity in work. And levels of human capabilty. They need to fit. Delegate a specific task to an indivudal or team that has the level of capability to do the work. Bernard Mohr: Reacted with 👍🏼 Nicolay Worren: Reacted with 👍 01:22:52 Sue Ryu: Excellent points Jodie! Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 Anna McGrath: Reacted with 👍 01:22:53 Rahul Lama: Thinking out loud: In the army, there are people from the infantry who ultimately lead the org. Is there a ‘manager’ term in the army hierarchy anywhere in the world..? If such a specialised and human intensive org like an army doesn’t have ‘managers’, do corporates need them..? 01:23:23 Jackie Diab: Well said Jodie 👏 01:23:52 Sue Ryu: Also, what we forgot to mention is empowering people to do the best they can. Again self management does not mean total agreement/consensus. 01:23:54 Ken Shepard: Armies around the world have well designed and tested hierarchies. And there is some decentralized decision making on the front line. 01:24:34 Molly Breazeale: Amen, Jodie! Great points, when we put managers in systems that no longer work, we set them up to fail, or take forever to produce results. Jodie Goulden: Reacted with 🙂 Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with ❤️ 01:25:01 Paul Tolchinsky: Team of Teams talks about mission, vision, shared accountability and reconfigurable 01:25:04 Sue Ryu: LOL 01:25:14 Bruce Mabee: How can we design roles so actual people can do them? Each situation is different, which is why we need designers. Jodie Goulden: Replying to "How can we design ro..."'actual people' 🙂 01:25:40 Ken Shepard: See complete description of US Army use of work levels at https://globalro.org/article/us-army-use-requisite-organization-1978/2505 01:25:47 Bernard Mohr: @Bruce - and that is why participative design is important Jodie Goulden: Reacted with 👍 Paul Tolchinsky: Reacted with 👍 Kristian Orozco: Reacted with 👍 01:27:05 Ken Shepard: Perhaps a useful term is “managerial leadership” with requisite authorities. 01:30:27 Ken Shepard: Agreed - we need to continously redesign org roles to take advantage of rapidly evolving technologies. Lorena Balestrieri: Reacted with 👍🏻 01:30:41 Sue Ryu: Indeed! 01:30:54 Jodie Goulden: Well said Gareth. Why design matters. Molly Breazeale: Reacted with 👍🏻 01:31:10 Bernard Mohr: @Ken “we need to continously redesign org roles to take advantage of rapidly evolving technologies.” …this is the new requisite capability 01:31:49 Ken Shepard: Agree with Bernard’s requisite capability 01:33:01 Jim Dowling: @Bernard What if we taught people how to dynamically rearrange to meet changing needs AND maintain focus and alignments. 01:33:24 Bernard Mohr: In theory, STS-D designs-in the requisite capability for continously redesigning org roles to take advantage of rapidly evolving technologies.”. In my experience we are not so great at that 01:33:26 Ken Shepard: It seems that requisite structures are the most flexible to make frequent adjustments with changing technology and strategies. 01:34:20 Bernard Mohr: @ken - would love you to lead a session on <